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Hi All

Postby Riyuko » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:20 pm

Hi People

First of all id like to say thanks to all that contribute to this website its an amazing source of info to help a newbie like me :)

I wasnt sure where to put this post here or in the help section but seeing as its our first tank i thought it would be best here (moderator feel free to move it if it needs to be :) )

Anyway along with the info myself and my wife to be decided as an early wedding gift we would get a tank, its a 103L EHEIM all in one, bowed front tank.

We setup the tank and of course let it all settle 7 days later we went to our LFS and purchased 8 Guppies (4 Dragon Tail, 4 Blue Neon) the guy there said it was a push but should be okay, along with that we brought 5 plants to brighten up the tank.

Anyway i come home from work the next day and my other half has gone and brought 2 small angel fish and 1 plec.. even tho i told her not to lol :twisted: everything was fine till about 7-8days down the road when the guppies started fading in colour, having what looked like fin rott, and what looked like white spot, the next morning we had lost 5 of them :( but still the angel fish and plec where perfectly fine, which is odd because from what i have read these would be the first to go...

We started doing daily water changes of about 20-30% for a few days along with some King British Disease Clear as treatment after 3 days showed no signs of change for the guppies infact we even lost another one and the plec, but still the angel fish were fine :? , after going to the LFS again after work today i have picked up some ulcer and fin rott treatment and a testing kit to only come back and see the angels look to be on there last legs, they seems to have a slime over them but the stuff i have brought doesn't seem to cater for that, any how stupidly i only noticed this after i had administered the new treatment.

so whats the best thing to do guys? apparently i cant administer two different treatments according to the bottle, soo have i condemned the angel fish to death :(

Oh the on the dip stick testing kit everything showed at the right levels which is good in not if it was before changing the water but it is now
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Re: Hi All

Postby san-ho-zay » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:32 pm

Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you are having a hard time of it :(

The slime coat is probably a response to the chemical treatments you are adding to the tank.

Given that you probably can't tell if there is whitespot or not, it's probably best to relieve the irritation by changing 50% of the water every day, starting asap. Now if possible. With a large water change it's especially important to make sure the temperature of water you are adding matches that in the tank and that you use a suitable dechlorinator according to the directions on the bottle.

I'd suggest not adding any more chemicals for the time being. See if you can get the fish back on track with simple water changes.

After each water change add a pinch of salt, ideally sea salt or rock salt. When I say a pinch, I mean about one tenth of a teaspoon. No more than that.

Does your filter have an activated carbon sponge? Could you measure your tank please (LxWxH)?
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Re: Hi All

Postby Riyuko » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:21 pm

Hi There

Many Thanks for the reply..

The tank size is 80 x 30/35 x 40, from reading the manual the filter doesn't have a active carbon sponge but does have one available as an accessory if you wish to buy it.

i will get on and do a water change now since writing this we have lost one of the angel fish :(
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Re: Hi All

Postby Riyuko » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:43 am

just to keep you informed.

did a water change 50% last night as advised, no dead fish this morning which is could but the 3 that are left are still looking ropey.

any ideas on why this might have happened? to many fish to soon is my guess just surprised everything was okay for over week before going down hill
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Re: Hi All

Postby san-ho-zay » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:57 am

I think your guess is correct. Too many fish too soon and, consequently, not enough water changes.

It would take time for ammonia to build up to a fatal level or for infection to set in as a result of reduced immunity caused by the burning. It also usually takes about a week for nitrite to kick in, which can suffocate fish quite rapidly. The disease treatment may have exacerbated the problem. What does it say the active ingredient is?

There's still a question over whitespot but I think your priority has to be 50% daily water changes to give the fish a chance to recover. Do they still show signs of whitespot? Like grains of salt? Or is the slime coat so bad you can't see?

The slime coat will settle down quite quickly if you continue with the water changes. You could do one this morning and one this evening. Dechlorination and temperature matching is important. Pinch of salt to mitigate against nitrite poisoning.

It should go without saying that you shouldn't add any more fish until your current crop are healthy.
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Re: Hi All

Postby Riyuko » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:31 pm

Thanks for the reply mate once again :)

Well i got home today all ready to do another 50% change thinking wooo hooo i can save these fishes :D but unfortunately the last 3 have passed away :(

So i guess if you still wish me to answer the questions regarding the whitespot i can but dont really see the point currently, i just only wish i had found these forums quicker :(

So i have still done a 50% change and left everything running and ofc im not ready to give up yet.

so whats the best way to procede? the guy in the LFS and a few friends have advised me not to empty the tank and start again as it will kill off any good bacteria that has already started.

The water levels before the 50% change were still fine, but i dont know how good the dip tests are :?

Also when changing water we have the API stress coat + and King British safe Water (Filter Aid) are these the right things to be putting in?

PS i want my fishies back :( lol
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Re: Hi All

Postby san-ho-zay » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:17 pm

Sorry the water changes weren't soon enough. :(

With the lingering suspicion of whitespot, you ought to take steps to eradicate that before adding any fish. It won't survive indefinitely but there may be cysts in the substrate. With no fish and this being summer, at least there is a simple solution: Raise the temperature above 30*C. This accelerates the lifecycle of the parasite, perhaps even killing it. With no hosts to feed on, it dies out. Wash your buckets, siphon tubes, nets, tank decor, etc. in plain hot water and leave to dry (in the sun if it ever comes out). You need to leave the tank for a week to make sure they are all gone.

Dip strips are no more than a rough guide and work out expensive. A liquid ammonia kit and a liquid nitrite (with an "i") kit is a much better investment for the cycling process and will enable you to have a safe cycle. Given the experience you have had, I suspect you won't add too many fish this time. The Angel Fish and plec were too big for the tank as well, so let's work on a better plan while your tank is empty.

Any bacteria that you have in the tank will die back while there are no fish. You can add fish food or leave a large piece of cucumber to rot to try and keep things going but unscented household ammonia is cleaner and easier to dose if you can lay your hands on a bottle. You'd add a teaspoon of ammonia to simulate fish, adding more when the ammonia test reads zero. Whether you then proceed the whole way with a fishless cycle is up to you but you'd have to do a large water change and test before adding any more fish. You don't lose bacteria by doing water changes.

The filter aid hasn't really worked for you. If you know people with tanks, getting a squeeze of dirty water from one of their filters is a reliable way to seed your filter. Just tip the dirty water in your tank or your filter.

API Stress Coat is a perfectly good dechlorinator and you should finish the bottle but I find it expensive so I just use the King British Safe Guard (look on the box for "deals with chlorine and chloramines"). Nutrafin Aqua Plus is another one I like but my pet shop doesn't stock it.

I know this all sounds like a lot of work and complicated but it's just the first few weeks that are the tricky part. Then you get to enjoy the tank and healthy fish.
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Re: Hi All

Postby Riyuko » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:21 pm

Excellent thanks for the advice i will go through it all tomorrow after work.

Been stuck doing work from home tonight after the change i advised of and also with no fish didnt see the need to rush it lol
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Re: Hi All

Postby Riyuko » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:33 pm

Right im in the process of doing all the above now :)

You mentioned the fish that we had where wrong for the size and capacity of the tank, its something that i must have been miss lead on, as Im sure i was advised something like a plec would grow to a % of the tank something like 15-20% i think and i guess that stuck in my mind, I will be getting a bigger tank within a few years once we have moved out of our currently rented place and have more room

what funky colourfull fish would you recommend in the future? i do like the guppies so they are a given but was also was looking at betta, but all over the place has mixed opinions of keeping them together some say its fine some say dont :? its really hard to find the right advice sometimes and i guess alot of it is based on personal opinion and previous experience :)

So what would you recommend in a my 103L tank?
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Re: Hi All

Postby san-ho-zay » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:53 pm

There are some fish that "grow to the size of the tank" in the sense that they release and respond to a pheromone that inhibits growth. Think of it as a natural brake on size in over-dense populations of fish. It's not to be relied upon, as such overstocking can put a tank in a precarious position where anything that goes wrong, e.g. heater failure or power cut, can cause catastrophic loss of fish. There are also some fish, notably plecs and goldfish, that are found to grow regardless of tank size and population. The goldfish that I won at the fair as a boy was a lucky one because it grew and grew until it got a pond and lots of buddies to play outside with. Depending on species, a plec can reach 2ft without deference to the size of the tank. Life happens and big fish are best kept for big tanks really.

Besides, there are so many attractive fish that will thrive in smaller tanks, there's no point going down that uncertain road. A bristlenose plec, for example, will only grow to 15cm (6").

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The betta is a tricky one and a tank has to be planned around it. Even the most placid barbs can turn into fin-shredders given the temptation of a betta's trailing finnage. They can fight to the death with anything they see as vaguely competitive. Like flashy-finned guppies, gouramies, mollies, congo tetras ... Hence the solitary confinement in aquatic shops.

I think you'd like the Dwarf Gourami. Very colourful. Gouramies can be feisty but they won't kill each other while you are improvising a tank divider with a coat hanger and a pair of tights. Nice disc of vibrant colour and a good size for your tank.

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You do pick 'em ... ;) Guppies. The millions fish. So-called because you buy two and end up with a million! That's not to say you shouldn't keep them -- just be aware of the potential consequences.

There are so many nice fish under 3" long: Rummy-nose tetras, lemon tetras, pentazona barbs, cherry barbs, cardinal tetras, pengiun tetras, dwarf gouramies, zebra danios, harlequins, corydoras ... Have a browse of the fish index before I go out and buy another tank:

Tropical Tank Fish Index

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Re: Hi All

Postby ItWentWhereverIdidGo » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:40 am

When fish release the pheromone to 'grow to the size of their environment' you remove it with water changes so a well looked after tank will have fish growing to their potential. A poorly looked after tank will have fish that don't grow to their potential for many reasons.
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Re: Hi All

Postby Riyuko » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:11 pm

You do pick 'em ... ;)


Lol yes it would appear so, thanks for compiling so much useful information... looks like im going to have to get more than one tank if i want all the funky fish i want lol... and im guessing this is where the itch starts you know that one where you keep on buying stuff to satisfy it but its never enough lol must have more tanks lol :P

Anyway alot to look at thanks for that guys :)
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Re: Hi All

Postby Riyuko » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:46 am

Hey guys

Thought i would add an update.. we have since added 6 Guppies sry san-ho-zay i cant help myself :P but they all seem very happy our LFS splits males and female guppies so they are all male, so hopefully shouldnt have any increase in population lol

Will take some photos at some point..

Hopefully everything will continue to go fine, have also decided will scrap the idea of bettas, and go with the dwarfs as you advised
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